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هل العدد الذي يقول وما أسم ابنه أن عرفت خطأ بدليل السبعينية أمثال 30: 4



Holy_bible_1



الشبهة



يقول البعض أن العدد الذي يقول في أمثال 30: 40 من صعد إلى السماوات ونزل؟ من جمع الريح في حفنتيه؟ من صر المياه في ثوب؟ من ثبت جميع أطراف الأرض؟ ما اسمه وما اسم ابنه إن عرفت؟

هو لا يقصد به المسيح لان السبعينية تقول أبناؤه وليس ابنه



الرد



الرد باختصار في البداية ان العدد الصحيح هو العدد العبري ولهذا اتبعته كل الترجمات تقريبا لان السبعينية غير دقيقه فيه ويوجد اختلاف بين مخطوطات السبعينية في هذا العدد.



وندرس الموضوع بشيء من التفصيل

أولا السبعينية في هذا العدد كما قلت يوجد اختلافات في مخطوطاتها وليس في العدد فقط بل في كل الاصحاح.

فالسبعينية بعض مخطوطاتها بها هذا الجزء غير موجود أصلا وتنتهي بإصحاح 29 فقط حسب نسخ الارثوزكس اليونان القدامى

Elpenor's Bilingual (Greek / English) Old Testament

Greek original according to the text used by the Church of Greece
English translation by L.C.L. Brenton, published side by side

وهذه لا يوجد بها هذا العدد أصلا



ويوجد نسخ أخرى للسبعينية يوجد فيها اصحاح 30: 1-14 هو بعد 24: 23 و 30: 15-31: 9 بعد 24: 34

وهذه النسخ تم إضافة اعداد ناقصة من مترجمين لاحقين وليس السبعينية

وهي التي بها تعبير أبناء

مثل السينائية عهد قديم

وبعضها يوجد به نص مختلف في هذا الاصحاح يقول نسوا الشريعة

وهو الذي اتبعته أشهر وأدق ترجمة انجليزية للسبعينية وهي ترجمة بريتون الشهيرة

Proverbs 30:4

(Brenton) so they that forsake the law praise ungodliness; but they that love the law fortify themselves with a wall.



فلهذا السبعينية لا يعتد بها في هذا العدد لاختلاف نصوصها



اما العبري فلا خلاف عليه في اقدم مخطوطاته وبالفعل قال ابنه

(IHOT+) מיH4310 Who עלהH5927 hath ascended up שׁמיםH8064 into heaven, וירדH3381 or descended? מיH4310 who אסףH622 hath gathered רוחH7307 the wind בחפניוH2651 in his fists? מיH4310 who צררH6887 hath bound מיםH4325 the waters בשׂמלהH8071 in a garment? מיH4310 who הקיםH6965 hath established כלH3605 all אפסיH657 the ends ארץH776 of the earth? מהH4100 what שׁמוH8034 his name, ומהH4100 and what שׁםH8034 name, בנוH1121 his son's כיH3588 if תדע׃H3045 thou canst tell?


(JPS) Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?

(BHS) מִי עָלָה־שָׁמַיִם וַיֵּרַד מִי אָסַף־רוּחַ בְּחָפְנָיו מִי צָרַר־מַיִם בַּשִּׂמְלָה מִי הֵקִים כָּל־אַפְסֵי־אָרֶץ מַה־שְּׁמֹו וּמַה־שֶּׁם־בְּנֹו כִּי תֵדָע׃


(WLC) מִ֤י עָלָֽה־שָׁמַ֨יִם׀ וַיֵּרַ֡ד מִ֤י אָֽסַפ־ר֨וּחַ׀ בְּחָפְנָ֡יו מִ֤י צָֽרַר־מַ֨יִם׀ בַּשִּׂמְלָ֗ה מִ֭י הֵקִ֣ים כָּל־אַפְסֵי־אָ֑רֶץ מַה־שְּׁמֹ֥ו וּמַֽה־שֶּׁמ־֝בְּנֹ֗ו כִּ֣י תֵדָֽע׃

وهذا نص لننجراد

وأيضا مخطوطة حلب

ولهذا كل التراجم القديم والحديثة كتبت ابنه

Proverbs 30:4

(ACV) Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou k


(AKJ) Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell?

(ASV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?


(BBE) Who has gone up to heaven and come down? who has taken the winds in his hands, prisoning the waters in his robe? by whom have all the ends of the earth been fixed? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you are able to say?


(VW) Who has gone up into Heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know.


(Bishops) Who hath clymed vp into heauen, and come downe from thence? who hath holden the wynde fast in his hande? who hath gathered together the waters in a garment? who hath established all the endes of the worlde: what is his name, and what is his sonnes name, yf thou canst tell?


(CJB) Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has cupped the wind in the palms of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!


(CLV) Who has ascended the heavens and descended? Who has gathered the wind in both His hands? Who has tied up the waters in a garment? Who has confirmed all the limits of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, in case you know?


(clVulgate) Quis ascendit in cælum, atque descendit? quis continuit spiritum in manibus suis? quis colligavit aquas quasi in vestimento? quis suscitavit omnes terminos terræ? quod nomen est ejus, et quod nomen filii ejus, si nosti?


(Darby) Who hath ascended up into the heavens, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a mantle? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?


(DRB) Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? who hath held the wind in his hands? who hath bound up the waters together as in a garment? who hath raised up all the borders of the earth? what is his name, and what is the name of his son, if thou knowest?


(ESV) Who has ascended to heaven and come down?

Who has gathered the wind in his fists?

Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?

Who has established all the ends of the earth?

What is his name, and what is his son's name?

Surely you know!


(ERV) Who has ever gone up to heaven and come back down? Who gathered the winds in his hand? Who can gather up all the water in his lap? Who set the limits for the world? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Do you know?


(EVID) Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you can tell? [b]


(FDB) Qui est monté dans les cieux, et qui en est descendu? Qui a rassemblé le vent dans le creux de ses mains? Qui a serré les eaux dans un manteau? Qui a établi toutes les bornes de la terre? Quel est son nom, et quel est le nom de son fils, si tu le sais?


(FLS) Qui est monté aux cieux, et qui en est descendu? Qui a recueilli le vent dans ses mains? Qui a serré les eaux dans son vêtement? Qui a fait paraître les extrémités de la terre? Quel est son nom, et quel est le nom de son fils? Le sais-tu?


(Geneva) Who hath ascended vp to heauen, and descended? Who hath gathered the winde in his fist? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the endes of the world? What is his name, and what is his sonnes name, if thou canst tell?


(GLB) Wer fährt hinauf gen Himmel und herab? Wer faßt den Wind in seine Hände? Wer bindet die Wasser in ein Kleid? Wer hat alle Enden der Welt gestellt? Wie heißt er? Und wie heißt sein Sohn? Weißt du das?


(GW) [To the audience] "Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in the palm of his hand? Who has wrapped water in a garment? Who has set up the earth from one end to the other? What is his name or the name of his son? Certainly, you must know!


(HCSB-r) Who has gone up to heaven and come down?

Who has gathered the wind in His hands?

Who has bound up the waters in a cloak?

Who has established all the ends of the earth?

What is His name,

and what is the name of His Son-

if you know?


(HNV) Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you know?


(csb) Who has gone up to heaven and come down?

Who has gathered the wind in His hands?

Who has bound up the waters in a cloak?

Who has established all the ends of the earth?

What is His name,

and what is the name of His Son-

if you know?


(IAV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


(ISRAV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


(JST) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


(JOSMTH) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


(JPS) Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?


(KJ2000) Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell?


(KJV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


(KJV-1611) Who hath ascended vp into heauen, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his sonnes name, if thou canst tell?


(KJV21) Who hath ascended up into heaven or hath descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?


(KJVA) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


(LBP) Tell me, Who has ascended up into heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a handkerchief? Who has established all the borders of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell?


(LITV) Who has gone up to Heaven, and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in His garments? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know.


(MKJV) Who has gone up to Heaven and has come down? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in His garments? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know.


(nas) Who has ascended (1125) into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind (1126) in His fists? Who has wrapped (1127) the waters in His [427] garment? Who has established (1128) all the ends of the earth? What is His name (1129) or His son's name? Surely you know!


(NCV) Who has gone up to heaven and come back down? Who can hold the wind in his hand? Who can gather up the waters in his coat? Who has set in place the ends of the earth? What is his name or his son's name? Tell me, if you know!


(NET.) Who has ascended into heaven, and then descended? Who has gathered up the winds in his fists? Who has bound up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? — if you know!


(NET) Who has ascended into heaven, and then descended?11 Who has gathered up the winds in his fists?12 Who has bound up the waters in his cloak?13 Who has established all the ends of the earth?14 What is his name, and what is the name of his son?15 — if you know!


(NAB-A) Who has gone up to heaven and come down again--who has cupped the wind in his hands? Who has bound up the waters in a cloak--who has marked out all the ends of the earth? What is his name, what is his son's name, if you know it?


(NIVUK) Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!


(NLV) Who has gone up into heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His hands? Who has gathered the waters in His coat? Who has put in place all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? For sure you know!


(NWT) Who has ascended to heaven that he may descend? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son, in case you know?


(RNKJV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his sons name, if thou canst tell?


(RV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in his garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?


(TMB) Who hath ascended up into heaven or hath descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?


(TRC) Who hath climbed up into heaven? Who hath come down from thence? Who hath holden the wind fast in his hand? Who hath comprehended the waters in a garment? Who hath set all the ends of the world? What is his name, or his son's name? Canst thou tell?


(UPDV) Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you know?


(Webster) Who hath ascended into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?


(Wycliffe) Who stiede in to heuene, and cam doun? Who helde togidere the spirit in hise hondis? who bonde togidere watris as in a cloth? Who reiside alle the endis of erthe? What is name of hym? and what is the name of his sone, if thou knowist?


(YLT) Who went up to heaven, and cometh down? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound waters in a garment? Who established all ends of the earth? What is His name? and what His son's name? Surely thou knowest!



بل حتى الفلجاتا من القرن الرابع كتبت ابنه


(Vulgate) quis ascendit in caelum atque descendit quis continuit spiritum manibus suis quis conligavit aquas quasi in vestimento quis suscitavit omnes terminos terrae quod nomen eius et quod nomen filii eius si nosti


Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? who hath held the wind in his hands? who hath bound up the waters together as in a garment? who hath raised up all the borders of the earth? what is his name, and what is the name of his son, if thou knowest?



وأيضا البشيتا السرياني من القرن الرابع كتبت ابنه وترجمتها


(Lamsa) Tell me, Who has ascended up into heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a handkerchief? Who has established all the borders of the earth? What is his name, and what is his sons name, if you can tell?

وحتى المدراش كتب ابنه ليقصد به المسيا الذي له وجود سابق قبل مجيؤه

udaism has taught from the earliest times that Messiah was pre-existent (especially in view of Micah 5 and Daniel 7);

Net Bible

فاعتقد اصالة تعبير ابنه هو قاطع والسبعينية لا يعتد بها في هذا العدد لاختلاف مخطوطاتها



والمجد لله دائما